Legislature(2003 - 2004)

04/07/2004 05:45 PM Senate HES

Audio Topic
* first hearing in first committee of referral
+ teleconferenced
= bill was previously heard/scheduled
             HB  25-HEALTHCARE SERVICES DIRECTIVES                                                                          
                                                                                                                                
The committee took up CSHB 25(JUD).                                                                                             
                                                                                                                                
DR.  MARIA  WALLINGTON,  medical ethicist  at  Providence  Alaska                                                               
Medical Center  in Anchorage, acknowledged  that a great  deal of                                                               
work has  been done on  the bill since  it passed the  House, and                                                               
that  she was  looking forward  to enactment  of the  bill.   She                                                               
indicated  that she  needed to  catch a  plane, but  could answer                                                               
questions for several minutes.                                                                                                  
                                                                                                                                
CHAIR DYSON  said HB 25  would be  heard on Wednesday  [April 14]                                                               
and confirmed that she would be  available by telephone.  He then                                                               
asked Dr. Wallington if a person  has an advance directive and an                                                               
agent, if that agent can make the health care decisions.                                                                        
                                                                                                                                
DR. WALLINGTON said that is correct.                                                                                            
                                                                                                                                
CHAIR DYSON  asked if the  agent could over-ride what  the person                                                               
included in the advance care directive.                                                                                         
                                                                                                                                
DR. WALLINGTON responded,  "No, they can't.   They are instructed                                                               
to  make decisions  that support  and  work for  the health  care                                                               
directives that  the patient has  given in their directive."   If                                                               
the particular  issue is not  addressed in the directive  then it                                                               
would  follow what  the agent  knows  of the  person's wishes  or                                                               
values.   If those  are not  pertinent or  unknown, the  agent is                                                               
instructed  to  work  according  to  the  best  interest  of  the                                                               
principal.                                                                                                                      
                                                                                                                                
CHAIR DYSON asked  if the agent was the only  one to define those                                                               
best interests  or if there was  a medical team involved  in that                                                               
decision.                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                
DR. WALLINGTON  said the  decisions were  generally shared.   The                                                               
medical personnel have  a great deal of input  because of knowing                                                               
the medical issues and the benefits/risks of treatment.                                                                         
                                                                                                                                
CHAIR  DYSON asked  about  the meaning  of  the phrase  "inhumane                                                               
burden."                                                                                                                        
                                                                                                                                
DR. WALLINGTON  said to  her it  means that  what this  person is                                                               
going through seems pretty awful.                                                                                               
                                                                                                                                
CHAIR  DYSON asked  if this  were something  other than  pain and                                                               
suffering.                                                                                                                      
                                                                                                                                
DR. WALLINGTON  answered it seems  an inhumane burden  would lead                                                               
to suffering.   She noted  that she didn't pick  that terminology                                                               
and  had a  similar question  about the  meaning.   She explained                                                               
that  people can  experience physical  pain and  suffering; there                                                               
can  be emotional  suffering from  not  being able  to speak  and                                                               
knowing it; there can be spiritual  suffering also.  She said she                                                               
wasn't  sure what  amounts to  an inhumane  burden, but  that she                                                               
hopes  the  medical  people  and  the  agent  would  recognize  a                                                               
situation as being too much.                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
CHAIR DYSON  asked about  someone other  than the  patient making                                                               
that decision when the patient is incompetent or unconscious.                                                                   
                                                                                                                                
DR. WALLINGTON  interjected, a person  not capable  of expressing                                                               
his/her opinion.                                                                                                                
                                                                                                                                
CHAIR  DYSON continued  that a  conscious  and competent  patient                                                               
makes  his/her own  decisions, no  matter what  the agent  or the                                                               
directive says.  However, if  a non-terminal patient (someone who                                                               
is  not  going  to  die  really  soon)  is  unconscious,  and  is                                                               
experiencing pain  and suffering, then the  directive, the agent,                                                               
and the best interest would  indicate the use of pain medications                                                               
to deal with the suffering.                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                
DR. WALLINGTON confirmed, "If the suffering is from the pain."                                                                  
                                                                                                                                
CHAIR  DYSON asked  at what  point -  under what  circumstances -                                                               
regarding  an  incompetent  or  unconscious  person  who  is  not                                                               
terminal, ought  the decision be  made to withdraw  hydration and                                                               
food to let the person die.                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                
DR. WALLINGTON  said one has  to go  back to the  word "terminal"                                                               
and ask  if the only reason  a person is still  living is because                                                               
of being provided with some kind  of medical care, is that person                                                               
terminal if  you can force him/her  to keep on living?   That is,                                                               
if  someone  would  die  without medical  care,  is  that  person                                                               
terminal?  Or, if you can  keep them alive with medical care, are                                                               
they  not  terminal?   It's  a  grey  area because  obviously,  a                                                               
diabetic without  insulin will die,  but that person  wouldn't be                                                               
referred to  as terminal.  She  said that for her  personally, it                                                               
hinges  on  whether what  is  needed  to  keep the  person  alive                                                               
actually allows him/her  to go on with life, or  if there is hope                                                               
for that  person to become healthy  again and not depend  on that                                                               
medical  care.   She  said  so  much  depends on  the  particular                                                               
situation, giving absolute criteria is very difficult.                                                                          
                                                                                                                                
CHAIR DYSON said  he doesn't think of someone on  a ventilator or                                                               
an  oxygen  bottle  as  being  terminal.    If  a  person  has  a                                                               
degenerative condition  that's going  to terminate  his/her life,                                                               
and  medical  attention is  supporting  them,  but can't  reverse                                                               
them...                                                                                                                         
                                                                                                                                
Dr. WALLINGTON interjected, "It's irreversible and progressive."                                                                
                                                                                                                                
CHAIR DYSON continued  by asking, "If the best  knowledge is that                                                               
the  person  is  not  going  to  return  to  consciousness,  what                                                               
criteria should  be used to decide  whether that person -  who is                                                               
heading downhill  in a  reasonable period of  time, with  no good                                                               
chance of returning  to consciousness - decide whether  or not to                                                               
stop the support that's keeping that person alive?"                                                                             
                                                                                                                                
DR.  WALLINGTON  asked, "Thinking  of  yourself  as the  deciding                                                               
agent, and the physician?"                                                                                                      
                                                                                                                                
CHAIR DYSON  replied, "No, you  as the  ethical guru on  this who                                                               
helped to guide us all with your training and experience."                                                                      
                                                                                                                                
DR. WALLINGTON  recalled that previous discussion  regarding best                                                               
interest was  "how we're trying  to capture  this decision-making                                                               
process, is [through]  the patient's values."  As  an example she                                                               
mentioned that  in Orthodox  Judaism there is  a belief  that the                                                               
life  of the  body  is an  absolute good  and  therefore what  is                                                               
required to keep the body  functioning would be aligned with that                                                               
value.  She said her personal  value system is that if she wasn't                                                               
conscious  of her  interactions  with others  and  God, then  she                                                               
wouldn't want her body kept  alive.  She emphasized that personal                                                               
values should be weighed in the balance  and need to be a part of                                                               
the decision.   The value of having a surrogate  who knows you is                                                               
that he/she can express what you  have expressed to him/her.  Dr.                                                               
Wallington  informed members  she  had to  leave  the meeting  to                                                               
catch a plane.                                                                                                                  
                                                                                                                                
SENATOR GUESS stated that she was  working from version B and she                                                               
wondered whether the rest of  the committee was also working from                                                               
version B.                                                                                                                      
                                                                                                                                
CHAIR  DYSON  said no,  "We're  still  working  off of  the  last                                                               
version that we had."                                                                                                           
                                                                                                                                
MS.   LINDA  SYLVESTER,   staff   to  Representative   Weyhrauch,                                                               
clarified that   version  B was from  "Legislative Legal"  and it                                                               
contained  a correction  that was  mission from  version V.   She                                                               
said, "'V' is  the operative, 'W'; and 'B' has  ... two changes."                                                               
A definition of  "enucleator" was taken out, as  it doesn't exist                                                               
in the  state and is  pretty irrelevant  to the discussion.   The                                                               
only substantive  change is  the first statement  in the  form, a                                                               
caution or  a warning about Alaska,  it does not honor  suicide -                                                               
assisted suicide,  euthanasia - and  since it is repeated  in the                                                               
form, it was taken out of  the introduction to the Optional form.                                                               
That  is the  difference between  versions B  and W.   There  are                                                               
substantial  changes from  versions  V  to W,  but  version B  is                                                               
essentially the same as 'V.'                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
CHAIR  DYSON asked  if the  last  committee action  taken was  to                                                               
adopt version V.                                                                                                                
                                                                                                                                
MR.  JASON  HOOLEY, staff  to  Chair  Dyson, confirmed  that  was                                                               
correct, version V was adopted during the 3/24/04 meeting.                                                                      
                                                                                                                                
MS.   SYLVESTER  continued   that  at   the  last   hearing,  her                                                               
instructions were to accumulate  comments and amendments, and the                                                               
results of that are dramatic improvements to 'V'....                                                                            
                                                                                                                                
CHAIR DYSON clarified that version V was before the committee.                                                                  
                                                                                                                                
MS.  CAROLE  EDWARDS,  a  board   member  of  the  Alaska  Nurses                                                               
Association  (ANA), and  an  oncology nurse  for  over 20  years,                                                               
testified that she has given direct  care to many patients at the                                                               
end  of life.   She  referred  to a  phrase, "even  if it  should                                                               
hasten  my death"  from one  of the  versions pertaining  to pain                                                               
medication. She asked  Ms. Sylvester for the page  number of this                                                               
reference.                                                                                                                      
                                                                                                                                
MS.  SYLVESTER  said in  the  form  there  is  an option  for  an                                                               
individual  filling  out the  advance  health  care directive  to                                                               
choose "Relief from Pain."   The preferred language is, "I direct                                                               
that  treatment for  the  alleviation of  pain  or discomfort  be                                                               
provided at  all times."  It  has been proposed to  continue that                                                               
statement by  stating, "even if it  kills me, even if  it hastens                                                               
my death,  even if it  causes my death."   She said  "the sponsor                                                               
resists  that  and our  position  is  encouraged by  the  medical                                                               
field."    Ms. Sylvester  said  this  was  what Ms.  Edwards  was                                                               
referring to.                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                
CHAIR  DYSON  questioned whether  she  said  the sponsor  resists                                                               
this.                                                                                                                           
                                                                                                                                
MS. SYLVESTER confirmed this was so.   She said it was preferable                                                               
that "it should be neutral" about causing or hastening death.                                                                   
                                                                                                                                
MS. EDWARDS said ANA would like  the language in version Q, pages                                                               
21-22,  under "(8)  Relief from  Pain:   If  I mark  this box,  I                                                               
direct that treatment  to alleviate pain or  discomfort should be                                                               
provided" to  be included, but  to eliminate "even if  it hastens                                                               
my  death."    She  explained   that  ANA's  view  is  that  most                                                               
individuals  don't  have  significant background  regarding  pain                                                               
medication at the end of life.   People reading this phrase might                                                               
not understand  the need for  large doses of pain  medication and                                                               
might be  tempted to  not check  this box  for fear  that someone                                                               
might intentionally kill them or  hasten their death.  These same                                                               
people might find  that in facing a very painful  death, the wish                                                               
is to  reverse this decision, but  they are unable to  do so, not                                                               
being competent  or conscious at  that time.  Family  members not                                                               
wanting to  lose their  loved one  or not  wanting to  change the                                                               
written wishes, might hesitate to  allow adequate amounts of pain                                                               
medication  to be  given  at that  point.   If  this phrase  were                                                               
eliminated it would cause less confusion.                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                
MS. EDWARDS continued that health  care providers don't give pain                                                               
medication to  hasten death; it is  given to relieve pain.   That                                                               
is the goal.  The bottom line  for a lot of health care providers                                                               
is that  they don't want to  lose their licenses.   She said that                                                               
regarding  the entire  bill, no  matter what  one's beliefs  are,                                                               
everyone  has the  right to  make these  important decisions  for                                                               
his/her  end of  life, with  the surrogate  being aware  of those                                                               
wishes. She said  she wants her wishes honored at  the end of her                                                               
life.   She wants  her parents'  wishes honored,  and as  an only                                                               
child, she knows  exactly what they want and she  plans to follow                                                               
their  wishes.   She hopes  that they're  in New  Jersey, because                                                               
that state  will allow  her to  follow their  wishes.   She hopes                                                               
that Alaska  will allow for  her wishes and her  patients' wishes                                                               
to be followed, and for people to make their own decisions.                                                                     
                                                                                                                                
CHAIR DYSON  asked what New  Jersey does that other  states don't                                                               
do.                                                                                                                             
                                                                                                                                
MS. EDWARDS said that her  parents' advance directives are filled                                                               
out, indicating  "nothing at the end  of life."  They  don't want                                                               
CPR, artificial fluid and nutrition,  or life support.  They want                                                               
I-V fluids  only if it's to  deliver pain medication so  they are                                                               
comfortable at the end of life.                                                                                                 
                                                                                                                                
CHAIR  DYSON asked  if New  Jersey allows  a person  to make  the                                                               
choice for virtually no life support at the end of life.                                                                        
                                                                                                                                
MS. EDWARDS said  yes.  She added that she  has the durable power                                                               
of  attorney for  health care  to  make those  decisions for  her                                                               
parents.                                                                                                                        
                                                                                                                                
Tape 04-20, SIDE B                                                                                                            
                                                                                                                              
MS.  LOIS  HILDENBRAND,  a volunteer  with  the  American  Cancer                                                               
Society  (ACS),  testified  from   Fairbanks  that  ACS  supports                                                             
provisions  of the  current version  of  the bill.   The  society                                                               
supports  the rights  of patients  and their  loved ones  to make                                                               
informed  decisions about  their health  care, and  it should  be                                                               
clear  and  uniform so  patients'  wishes  may be  respected  and                                                               
suffering  may be  diminished.   She then  told members  that she                                                               
practiced  as a  nurse  in Alaska  from 1982  until  1998 and  is                                                               
currently  a  pastor  at the  University  Community  Presbyterian                                                               
Church.   She  offered an  anecdote about  her uncle  who was  in                                                               
nursing care after  a life-threatening event.  She  was a witness                                                               
to his  "do not resuscitate  (DNR)" order  in Anchorage.   He was                                                               
then transferred  to Fairbanks  where his family  is located.   A                                                               
year after  he was transferred  he noticed  a little blue  dot on                                                               
the plate card in the dining room  at the Denali Center.  When he                                                               
found out  that this blue dot  was for people who  had DNR orders                                                               
he said that he  had such an order, but the  nurse taking care of                                                               
him said that he didn't.  The  one he had signed in Anchorage did                                                               
not transfer  to Fairbanks.   Fortunately  this wasn't  an issue;                                                               
however, had an  event occurred, he would  have been resuscitated                                                               
which  would have  been against  his  will.   She commended  this                                                               
attempt  to make  things  uniform throughout  the  state so  that                                                               
situations like this would not be faced in the future.                                                                          
                                                                                                                                
6:40 p.m.                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                
MS. CONNIE JONES,  a reverend and associate rector  at St. Mary's                                                               
Episcopal  Church, said  she  wasn't speaking  on  behalf of  the                                                               
church,  but was  speaking for  herself.   She said  she is  very                                                               
supportive of the bill, and  expressed her strong concern that on                                                               
page 8, regarding a section  on pregnancy, there is language that                                                               
takes  away  some  freedom  from   the  physician,  patient,  and                                                               
surrogate.   It says that  certain health care decisions  may not                                                               
be  given   effect  under  certain  circumstances   dealing  with                                                               
pregnancy.   She suggested this  subject was for some  other bill                                                               
rather  than  for  this  one,   and  that  there  would  be  more                                                               
widespread support of the bill if that section were removed.                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
CHAIR  DYSON said  he thought  that he  and the  sponsor were  in                                                               
agreement,  but  it  was  his  assumption that  a  woman  who  is                                                               
comatose and  unable to  make decisions  - the  fact that  she is                                                               
carrying an unborn child - is  evidence that she wants that child                                                               
to survive unless there is information  to the contrary.  He said                                                               
he believed  the sponsor  was interested in  the implied,  if not                                                               
expressed,  wish for  this to  be carried  forward and  asked Ms.                                                               
Jones what the problem was with that.                                                                                           
                                                                                                                                
SENATOR  GUESS  asked  for clarification  of  the  version  being                                                               
addressed.                                                                                                                      
                                                                                                                                
CHAIR DYSON responded this was on page 8 in version V.                                                                          
                                                                                                                                
MS. JONES  wondered if she  had the  correct version, as  she had                                                               
version V.  [It was clarified  that this also referred to page 8,                                                               
line 16,  version B.]   Ms. Jones  continued that she  didn't see                                                               
any definition  relating to this section,  in the back.   She was                                                               
looking, in particular for a  definition of "fetus" as she didn't                                                               
know what stage was being referred to.                                                                                          
                                                                                                                                
CHAIR DYSON said he thought he  was speaking for the sponsor, but                                                               
the  assumption was  that  if  a woman  was  pregnant and  hadn't                                                               
already made the  choice to, or wasn't already in  the process of                                                               
getting  an  abortion, then  this  was  a  wanted child,  so  the                                                               
default choice would be to preserve  that woman's life as long as                                                               
possible to enhance the child's chances of surviving her.                                                                       
                                                                                                                                
MS. JONES suggested  that this kind of detail does  not belong in                                                               
the bill and  her hope was that the physicians  dealing with this                                                               
person and  the surrogate, if  the woman was comatose,  would use                                                               
judgment and not have to  be given an instruction indicating that                                                               
these  health care  decisions "may  not  be given  effect."   She                                                               
reiterated that the  bill doesn't suffer by  having this language                                                               
removed,  and said  it sounds  a little  dictatorial.   Ms. Jones                                                               
asked about obtaining updated versions of the bill.                                                                             
                                                                                                                                
CHAIR DYSON  pointed out  that the language  she had  referred to                                                               
had not  changed [between  versions] and  said she  could contact                                                               
either his office or Senator Guess's for updated versions.                                                                      
                                                                                                                                
MR.  BRUCE  ZALNERAITIS,  with  Life  Alaska  Donor  Services  in                                                               
Anchorage, the state's organ and  tissue donor program, testified                                                               
that he was available to  answer questions relating to anatomical                                                               
gifts and consent,  particularly to what is  called "first person                                                               
consent or donor designation."                                                                                                  
                                                                                                                                
CHAIR DYSON asked  if Life Alaska Donor Services is  a program or                                                               
a commercial enterprise.                                                                                                        
                                                                                                                                
MR.  ZALNERAITIS  replied  this   is  a  non-profit  organization                                                               
responsible  for organ  and tissue  donations in  the state.   He                                                               
mentioned that he has made recommendations to the bill.                                                                         
                                                                                                                                
CHAIR DYSON  asked if  he was  uncomfortable about  the direction                                                               
the sponsor was going with the bill.                                                                                            
                                                                                                                                
MR. ZALNERAITIS said  no.  He referred to the  question of opting                                                               
out as  opposed to opting  in.   Life Alaska supports  the system                                                               
now in place in  which a person chooses to be  a donor, and until                                                               
he/she does so,  is not a donor.   That could be  described as an                                                               
opt-in  system.   A person  needs  to indicate,  through a  donor                                                               
registry or  the completion of  a donor card, that  he/she wishes                                                               
to be  a donor.  In  the absence of  that, he/she is not  a donor                                                               
unless  upon   his/her  death,  the   family  chooses   to  grant                                                               
permission for him/her to be a donor.                                                                                           
                                                                                                                                
CHAIR DYSON asked if the current donor law is opt-in.                                                                           
                                                                                                                                
MR.  ZALNERAITIS said  yes,  and  that means  that  based on  the                                                               
Uniform  Anatomical  Gifts  Act  that Alaska  has  adopted,  Life                                                               
Alaska is not  able to proceed with a donation  unless either the                                                               
person has granted permission in  advance, or his/her relatives -                                                               
upon  that  person's death,  in  the  order described  -  granted                                                               
permission for  donation.   It does not  take place  without such                                                               
permission.                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                
CHAIR DYSON asked if it is  correct that the agent, surrogate, or                                                               
guardian  could  not  overrule  a  person  who  gave  an  advance                                                               
directive indicating they did not want to be a donor.                                                                           
                                                                                                                                
MR. ZALNERAITIS  said correct.   In  accordance with  the Uniform                                                               
Anatomical Gifts  Act, if a  "known prior objection"  exists from                                                               
the  person,  or  in  the  case of  after  death,  the  deceased,                                                               
donations shall not take place.                                                                                                 
                                                                                                                                
CHAIR  DYSON  questioned  whether  the family  could  make  those                                                               
decisions after death if the person didn't write it down.                                                                       
MR. ZALNERAITIS  said correct.   This would be considered  as "no                                                               
known objection."                                                                                                               
                                                                                                                                
CHAIR DYSON asked for clarification  about a situation in which a                                                               
person  has flat-line  brainwaves,  and the  current practice  to                                                               
keep the heart and lungs going,  while the team gets ready and/or                                                               
prepares the  recipients and  whether it is  within the  realm of                                                               
commonly defined ethics.                                                                                                        
                                                                                                                                
MR. ZALNERAITIS said the first step  is to consult with the next-                                                               
of-kin to determine  whether, in the absence  of advance notation                                                               
to  be a  donor, the  family would  grant permission  to consider                                                               
their  loved  one as  being  a  donor.    Only then  would  organ                                                               
function  get  assessed  and  teams  be  brought  in  to  do  the                                                               
transplants.                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
CHAIR DYSON asked if there were any states that had opted-out.                                                                  
                                                                                                                                
MR. ZALNERAITIS said  there are no opt-out systems  in the United                                                               
States that he knows of.                                                                                                        
                                                                                                                                
MR.  CHIP WAGONER,  representing the  Alaska Catholic  Conference                                                               
(ACC), testified that ACC is the  official voice of the church in                                                               
Alaska  regarding  public  policy  matters.   He  emphasized  the                                                               
significance of the bill, with  its goal to enable individuals to                                                               
have their wishes  implemented.  He stated that ACC  has the goal                                                               
of  wanting to  prohibit  and prevent  euthanasia; euthanasia  is                                                               
defined  as "an  action or  an admission  which of  itself or  by                                                               
intention causes  death in order  that all suffering may  in this                                                               
way  be eliminated."   He  said this  was a  balance of  two very                                                               
important  public policies,  and  Chair Dyson's  version X  comes                                                               
closest  to meeting  that balance.    He referred  to version  X,                                                               
saying that of the 14  amendments ACC submitted, 3 were accepted,                                                               
4 were  compromised, and 7  were rejected.  Regarding  version B,                                                               
12 were  rejected, 1  was compromised,  and 1  was accepted.   He                                                               
mentioned  a   change  in  ACC's  recommendation   regarding  two                                                               
situations in which life-sustaining  procedures could be withheld                                                               
or  withdrawn from  a  patient,  when it  was  determined by  the                                                               
surrogate,  agent,  or guardian.    One  situation was  when  the                                                               
person was  terminally ill, and the  other was when a  person was                                                               
permanently unconscious.  Since  those amendments were submitted,                                                               
there  was  a   conference  held  in  Europe   sponsored  by  the                                                               
Pontifical Academy  for Life and the  International Federation of                                                               
Catholic  Medical  Associations,  the International  Congress  of                                                               
Life  Sustaining  Treatments   and  Vegetative  State  Scientific                                                               
Advances  and Ethical  Dilemmas.    Pope John  Paul  II issued  a                                                               
statement  at  that conference  relating  to  the issue  of  when                                                               
artificial  nutrition   and  hydration   could  be   withheld  or                                                               
withdrawn, and ACC  is backing off from  that amendment somewhat,                                                               
although it may not change ACC's support for the bill.                                                                          
                                                                                                                                
CHAIR  DYSON asked  what  position  the group  came  to that  was                                                               
authenticated by The Pope.                                                                                                      
                                                                                                                                
MR. WAGONER read  the following:  "I should  like particularly to                                                               
underline how  the administration  of water  and food,  even when                                                               
provided by  artificial means, always represents  a natural means                                                               
of preserving  life, not a  medical act.  It's  use, furthermore,                                                               
should be considered in principle  ordinary and proportionate and                                                               
as such,  morally obligatory insofar as  and until it is  seen to                                                               
have attained  its proper  finality, which  in the  present case,                                                               
consists in providing nourishment  to the patient and alleviation                                                               
of his suffering."   Mr. Wagoner stated that this  was a stronger                                                               
position and that regarding version X ...                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                
CHAIR DYSON interrupted, saying that this  was a bit of a problem                                                               
because [version X]  had not been distributed yet,  and he hadn't                                                               
had a chance to  look at it; it was not yet a  part of the active                                                               
discussion.                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                
SENATOR  GUESS reiterated  that it  was disturbing  that she  had                                                               
received version B from the sponsor,  "which is after X, and a W,                                                               
and that there's an X floating  around" and that she wasn't being                                                               
provided with the version Mr. Wagoner was speaking to.                                                                          
                                                                                                                                
MR.  WAGONER  apologized and  said,  "I  think we're  very,  very                                                               
close, Mr. Chairman."                                                                                                           
                                                                                                                                
CHAIR DYSON agreed,  stating that the sponsor and  his staff have                                                               
done immense and valuable work.                                                                                                 
                                                                                                                                
MR. WAGONER confirmed,  "Without a doubt, I  think you've brought                                                               
two  of  the ends  kind  of  in the  middle,  and  if the  middle                                                               
survives that would be great."                                                                                                  
                                                                                                                                
CHAIR  DYSON encouraged  members to  bring any  specifics on  the                                                               
bill  to his  staff in  order to  achieve the  very best  product                                                               
because "this  is such a laborious  effort that I doubt  if we'll                                                               
be back visiting  it for a long time, and  we're setting a course                                                               
here that makes  a huge difference for a  small but significantly                                                               
impacted group of people."                                                                                                      
                                                                                                                                
SENATOR GUESS said it was  difficult to provide comments when the                                                               
version  being  worked from  is  unspecified  and there  are  two                                                               
different versions being drafted by  Legislative Legal.  She said                                                               
she  provided comments  to the  sponsor  and his  staff, and  she                                                               
spent time with Dr. Wallington as well.                                                                                         
                                                                                                                                
CHAIR DYSON  responded that there  would only be three,  four, or                                                               
five  places with  changes.  He added,  "We'll  try to  highlight                                                               
those for you."                                                                                                                 
                                                                                                                                
MR. WAGONER  asked to  speak to  the pain  management issue.   He                                                               
said  there  are  two  reasons   why  ACC  advocated  for  having                                                               
something that  the patient could  put on his/her  form regarding                                                               
pain  management to  alleviate discomfort  and pain.   ACC  wants                                                               
something included to  the effect that "it's not  being done with                                                               
the intention of causing their death."   The language may need to                                                               
be  re-worded,  but it's  included  to  alleviate the  fear  that                                                               
doctors may have of prescribing  pain medication, and secondly to                                                               
clarify  that  euthanasia  or  assisted   suicide  is  not  being                                                               
authorized.                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                
CHAIR DYSON asked if there was any further testimony.                                                                           
                                                                                                                                
7:03 p.m.                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                
MS. MARIE  HELM, representative  of the committee  on publication                                                               
for the Christian Sciences Churches  of Alaska, expressed support                                                               
for HB 25  and commended Representative Weyhrauch,  his staff and                                                               
the HES  committee for  their work. She  referred to  language in                                                               
version  V on  page 10  that talks  about allowing  a patient  to                                                               
transfer from  a facility.   She  stated that  she hopes  that it                                                               
could  be spelled  out that  a patient  could choose  to go  home                                                               
where  there   might  be  hospice   care  or   other  alternative                                                               
treatments because  there might be  times that this would  be the                                                               
right choice for an individual.                                                                                                 
                                                                                                                                
CHAIR DYSON asked where that was on page 10.                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
MS. HELM  replied that the  language was on  line 12, page  10 of                                                               
version B.   She suggested  adding language such as,  "a location                                                               
of the  patient's choice or  the patient's home" saying  it would                                                               
be nice to  include that so it would be  understood that it's the                                                               
patient's right to choose to go home.                                                                                           
                                                                                                                                
CHAIR DYSON  said that is  a good point  and thanked her  for her                                                               
contribution.                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                
CHAIR DYSON held CSHB 25(JUD) in committee.                                                                                     

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